Thanks for contributing to the conversation.

As far as there being plenty of mistakes, I have yet to find any. As far as the Bible being an old book, if all old books were to be mistrusted, then most of human history would have to be considered a myth.

As far as basing my beliefs solely on an old book, God fixed a hard drive for me one time. I tried everything, it wouldn’t work. I laid hands on it and prayed, and God fixed it.

Also I am a computer programmer. When I look at all the complexity of life around me, and someone asks me to believe in Evolution (The default cause of life for an atheist), it’s like asking me to believe that I can write computer programs through random chance. Even the simplest of code would take more time than we have to write. Besides, Scientists have never created life from non-life, even when they try and can create ideal conditions. You would have be believe it happens on accident?

Also, I believe that the Bible describes humanity better than any other option. Almost all other religions and atheism say that man is basically good. The Bible says that man was born with a sin nature, and is basically evil. Apart from God, the Bible concludes that man will be sinful and evil. When I look at man as a whole, apart from God, I see evil people. I’ve seen kids fighting with each other from the time they are able to. Selfishness seems to be the general rule that humanity lives by, just as the Bible says it is.

But Jesus died on the cross so that we wouldn’t have to be ruled by sin anymore. Then he rose again on the third day to show that God would raise us up to be with him. All we have to do is repent of our sin, and ask him to forgive us. No other religion has a cure for sin like that. Evolutions basic premise (Survival of the fittest) is inherently selfish. Selfishness and sin accounts for almost all of the suffering in the world. Only Christianity offers a cure that works.

I know that you are probably looking through history and saying, “Christianity has caused it’s fair share of suffering!” and my heart grieves to think what Others have done in the name of Christ. But the Christ commanded us to love our enemies and to do good to them that do evil to us. Any one hurting others, killing others, or committing atrocities in the name of Christ is not operating on Christ’s behalf, and is most likely not a Christian.

Christ has worked in my life since I was a kid. He came into my life when I was just 5 years old. He helped me to be forgiving to those who hurt me, he helped me to learn to tell the truth. He comforted me through times of great despair, and has given me wisdom. He has answered my prayers when I needed it, and has not answered them when I prayed in ways that looking back would have caused more harm than good. God has worked in my life. But just like some old book, you can dismiss my testimony as someone else making up stories. But I can’t. I have to live with it. And to deny God would be to deny what I have seen and experienced. I can’t. You can, but Jesus doesn’t want you to. He wants to come into your life and set you free from your sin and guilt. He loves you, but will never force you to follow him. Can he do it? He has done it for me, and when I’ve turned my back on him, even lately, he has been there to pick me up, mend my wounds and help me to keep on walking.

God bless brother!
B.J.

B.J.’s last blog post..The Making of a Puppet Show Part 1

I’ll leave you to your non-faith, thanks for being gracious toward mine. I’ll pray for you – if they are idle words offered only to the air, no harm done! I did read your testimony in the past and I do think you got a very slightly and odd experience as much of what you experienced and objected to, I would too. There are many more churches that are more reasonable and avoid some of those unusual extremes you mention there.

Have a great day, I’m content to agree to disagree, and have enjoyed talking, even disagreeing, in a civil and polite conversation. More of that is needed in today’s world, and Christians can be the worst at it, I have to admit!

Later!

I’ve written about leaving Christianity here: http://personman.com/religious-autobiography-2004-2007

It had more to do with looking at the evidence objectively than with being disappointed by Christians. I taught apologetics in a church, so I was and am familiar with the arguments for god’s existence. When I stepped back and took a look at them again along with the non-theist responses, I saw that I could no longer buy into it.

This is the way these conversations usually go. Christians claim to have impressive evidence for their god, but when it’s examined and questioned, they fall back on faith. There’s a discussion about what faith is on my site now: http://personman.com/what-is-faith I don’t see it as a good thing. Let’s have confidence about things for which there’s evidence and be humble enough to say “I don’t know” about the rest. I see no need for faith, which is just certainty without evidence.

I’m sorry to hear about your health problems and happy that you’re on the mend. I hope you give some credit to scientific medicine, too. If you could only choose between 911/hospital/doctors or god/church/prayer, which would you do?

I’ve done the religious experience and don’t expect to ever go back. I’m much happier today than I ever was as a believer. If I were presented with evidence, I would seriously evaluate it. But I’m not going to take anything on faith.

I wish so badly I could prove it to you – but that would negate the value of, and reward of, faith. I also wish I could erase the many ways those claiming to be following Christ have inflicted harm on the world and damaged the experiential evidence by being dogmatic, destructive, scientifically sloppy or at times, simply wacky.

I appreciate you willingness to dialogue. You appear to be resolved in your position, so I am not trying to convince you of anything other than that Christianity is reasonable and worthy of the faith that will then fill in many of the blanks in surprising ways, if allowed. I also am sorry if you have had negative experiences with the people or the institutions of Christianity – I am ashamed of the ways many have been pushed away by harmful or hurtful experiences that make no amount of evidence approachable because of what they have experienced at a personal level.

But Christianity shouldn’t be judged by the people claiming to follow it, but on its own merits. Lame illustration, but I don’t judge McDonald’s food by the employees who serve it to me, but by its own taste. I may like the employee and hate the food, or (at a better restaurant) hate the employee but love the food. Christians can be an irritating lot as they are all over the spectrum of maturity and understanding (and mental capacity!), but the Truth of the Bible has not only stood the test of time, but gotten stronger as our understanding of this world increases.

At the core of most people’s rejection of Christianity is not Christianity, but usually some kind of experience with Christianity or “Christians” that was negative unless it is just a desire to live independently without responsibility to a Creator.

I’m writing today from a hospital bed recovering from a near heart attack and have seen God’s provision in so many of the details. (go to home page for details, at least at this writing) Facing one’s mortality does a lot to get one thinking about life after death and contemplating the meaning of life. I can’t convince you, (or anyone) I have to accept that, but I can’t (and must as long as I have breath) try to encourage others to take a closer look and suggest you may like what you find if you can get around whatever is holding you back.

I wish you the best possible life you can have without God, but I wish you could experience the fullness of life with Him, both now and forever. Thanks again for the conversation.

I’m not sure you’re understanding the 2nd law of thermodynamics correctly. This article might be helpful: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo

Briefly, the 2nd law says that in a closed system, disorder increases. If the universe is a closed system (and I think it is), then its disorder will increase over time. The earth and its lifeforms are not a closed system. We’re getting loads of energy from the sun, so the increase in organization of life doesn’t violate the 2nd law. The sun’s energy and order decreases and the earth’s increases (for a while), but solar system and the universe are on balance becoming more disordered over time as the 2nd law suggests.

I’ve had religious experiences, but I think they’re fully explainable. Every religion has its experience, including religions that we’d both agree are false. You don’t take those experiences as evidence that those religions are true and in the same way, I’m not convinced by your experiences (or mine).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you have evidence, I’ll be happy to hear it. But after your attempt at marshaling the 2nd law of thermodynamics for your case, I’m not expecting anything too impressive.

Cheers and enjoy the celebration of your resuscitating god-man/goddess of dawn.

Danny’s last blog post..What is faith?

As stated above, all we can “prove” is that faith in God and in the reliability of the Bible is REASONABLE – there are reasonable answers to every objection about the BIble, and there are extremely reasonable answers to the science of the Bible.

One of the things that is frustrating is that Christians are placed in the position of being the only one on defense. We are demanded to “prove” what we believe regardless of overwhelming (even if insufficient) evidence. Over and over, as science* develops, the Biblical view of history and science is found to be more reliable, not less.

For some reason, atheism (or agnosticism or simple theism) get a pass when it comes to the need to “prove” what they BELIEVE – when it requires EQUAL FAITH. Even based on the secular second law of thermodynamics, evolution is false at its core, but this HUGE exception (that things somehow got better, not worse, over time) is not given any explanation, but is merely “accepted” as true.

Why? The answer is simple and yet deeply personal. Atheism removes any personal responsibility to a Creator. Without God, you can live anyway you want, even if, like Danny, you choose to live in a good and moral way. (I’m skipping dealing with how you can determine what is good and moral if we all are just goo with no creator we are responsible to)

Atheism requires EQUAL FAITH but is not required to prove or defend itself. It is considered the “default truth” not needing proof and only world views that varry from that accepted (by faith) default world view must defend and prove itself.

I would argue that to not believe in God requires MORE FAITH than to believe in God. Something from nothing simply requires more faith than everything from God.

In the end, I can’t convince anyone that God is real or that the Bible is true. What I can do is invite someone to give God a chance and offer that from my experience, if one does, I believe they will find that God and the Bible make the most sense of life, answer the Great Questions with the most satisfaction, and if one is willing to be open minded, the scientific pursuit will be be more satisfying as well when one is willing to look with open eyes. The facts just over and over again add more assurance (if not proof) that the amazing God who created this world is indeed real, and can be personally involved in your life.

All that stands in the way for most is the ability or willingness to surrender to their Creator IF He is indeed discovered to be true. But let me assure you – whatever you think you’ll lose (control, or things you know in your heart are sin) will be greatly outweighed by all the good you will experience and enjoy.

The world will finally makes sense and the the enjoyment of it be indescribably richer.

That’s my 2 cents. (at least!)

You said, “Take out all references to God and miracles from the Bible, and the Bible would be accepted as one of the greatest and most verified historical records of the ancient world.” I seriously doubt this. The Bible is a product of an ancient culture and reflects their view of the world. There are probably some stories based in history (though I think the Exodus and everything before it is 100% myth), but there are plenty of mistakes, too.

What does it mean to “live like there is [a God]“? I don’t live like there is a god. I live as if there are no gods and I have to find my own meaning, morals and direction in life. That means living at peace with people, cooperating and loving those around me. No god required for any of that. There’s plenty of purpose in life without god. I’ve found life to be more meaningful without a deity intruding in my thoughts and affairs. If this 70 years is all I have, then I’m going to live life to its fullest. Even if there’s no purpose given to the universe from the outside, my life is still full of meaning.

If you think you can prove that your god exists, I’d love to hear it. You’ll need better proof than stories in old books. Several religions have those and you and I both feel confident in writing them off as invented.

Danny’s last blog post..What is faith?

Maybe we should ask Pharaoh after the plagues,
Or Moses as he was crossing the Red Sea,
Or the people of Jerico when the trumpets blew,
Or Daniel when he was in the Lions den,
Or Noah when he was asked to build an ark,
Or the Disciples when they saw Jesus risen from the dead.

The only reason not to believe these accounts is that “God doesn’t exist and miracles don’t happen.” But those are assumptions, not proofs. Take out all references to God and miracles from the Bible, and the Bible would be accepted as one of the greatest and most verified historical records of the ancient world.

The problem with knowing anything is that everything is based on assumptions, which are not provable. For example, your senses can be deceived. So how can you prove that what you see and hear is real? You can’t. But we all live like it is true. (We don’t try to walk through walls, right?)

I find it ironic that people want to believe that there is no God, yet they still live like there is one. If there is no God, then there is no purpose to life, because after all, in 10 billion years all of this will end, there will be nothing left. What does it matter if we live or die? It doesn’t! Yet we want to live and have purpose. If there were no God, then living like there was no purpose to anything (after all, we are just a “random accident”) would best match up with reality, and would be the best way to live.

In the end, even if you can’t prove that there is a God (Which I think you can,) believing in the God of the Bible ends up best matching up with reality. There being a God better explains the world we live in, and when we live according to the Word of God, reality makes more sense. If this makes you angry, remember, if there is no God, it doesn’t matter what I believe in anyway! (After all, I do believe that God gives everyone a choice, and that it is not my place to try to force anyone to believe in Him. But he does ask me to be a witness)

That said, many ideas of morality in our world have only evolved in cultures dominated by Christian thought: equality of the sexes and races, protection of the weak and infirmed, freedom of expression and worship and thought, protection of chidlren from abuse, equal access to education, and even the concept of exploring the accepted morays of culture. Think of people like Newton, Pascal, Galileo, Wilberforce, Lincoln, Guttenburg, King Jr., Columbus, the founders of Cambridge, Harvard and Princeton, Nightingale, etc.. they were all motivated by ideas birthed in them by the Christian faith. Certainly we could see that these cultures have produced plenty of bad ideas and the further we drift away the more bad ideas we produce. Yes some great concepts of morality have come from outside the Chrstian faith to (although I would venture to say that even Ghandi was deeply effected by Christian principles). But these higher forms of morality, outside the basics that most cultures agree on, have largely come from the wellspring of the Christian faith.

In terms of Norway and Sweden they do have a long history of a Christian culture which I believe is still having an impact there. The pre-Christian society that dominated there was pretty violent. For some reason too extrem norther countries (ie Canada, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland) have lower depression rates and lower crime rates – on average. This could be an environmental factor which we have not explored and do not understand.

I appreciate your attitude and your openness to discussion. I’m a nonbeliever and I take issue with several the things you have said above. I used to be a pastor and I made some of these same points in sermons, but now I think I was only seeing part of the picture.

You said that in the absence of answers to some of life’s biggest questions that people have no basis for morality. I disagree. I don’t see purpose as something that must be granted to humanity by a supernatural power. We all can and do choose what we will live for. It’s significant that cultures all over the world, regardless of religion, settle on several of the same moral guidelines. We should also note that cultures with less religion are not necessarily less moral. In fact, Norway and Sweden have both a low percentage of church attendance and two of the world’s lowest crime rates. This is an indication that your hypothesis about the connection between religion and morality is way off.

Many of the behaviors that we think of as moral are also present in other animals. Cooperation, abstention from killing members of the same species (murder), lifelong monogamy and caring for young can be found in ants, geese, other primates, etc. No one is suggesting that these animals get their “morality” from God, because we recognize the survival value of these behaviors. Isn’t it possible that this plays a role in human behavior is well?

So, the moral argument, which I used to find very convincing, has lost its force for me. I don’t see our shared morality as evidence for anything supernatural and I certainly don’t appreciate or agree with the idea that nonreligious people are immoral. Cooperation, peace, family. These are common ideas in humans and animals because they work, not because some deity came down out of the sky and read a list of rules.

Danny’s last blog post..What is faith?

It was always difficult for me to accept that there was a God because of my mother’s terminal illness. Any time someone would bring up the thought of a god I’d get frustrated and wonder how someone could let these things happen to “good people.”

Obviously there’s a whole lot that happened in between my thoughts then, and my thoughts now. The short version is that I chose to believe God existed… and that He really did want the best for me (and for my mother). Had there been some sort of “100% indeniable proof” that God existed I would have never learned to trust Him and seek after Him. I would have been left hating Him for not swooping into my life and my mother’s life and saving her from the terrible pain she endures everyday (speaking of my mother btw… please pray for her, she is in the hospital right now).

Only through faith and a sought after understanding of God and His love could I come to peace with Him. It wouldn’t happen any other way.

Melissa’s last blog post..My own Triathlon-run,swim, and bike