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	<title>Comments on: The Secret to Navigating the Evolution Debate</title>
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	<description>Karl Bastian&#039;s Personal Site and Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://kidologist.com/2009/11/08/secret-two-navigating-evolution-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-8410</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 03:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kidologist.com/?p=2365#comment-8410</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m looking for the evolution of this discussion. Where did it go? How is it not here? Why is it not here? Did it evolve into a whole new species of conversation? Was all the information here to begin with? Was new viral information added and the discussion became more complex? Was this whole discussion planned and designed from The Beginning, or did it just come about by an unimaginably long series of random cause-and-effect mechanisms? Perhaps my questions exist in more than one universe simultaneously, and the resulting translations represent an entirely different set of questions depending upon the universe from which the questions are viewed? Can we construct a nexus between these universes within which we can understand each other and, indeed, understand ourselves? Can we exist in this nexus long enough to get a glimpse of why we ourselves ask the questions we ask? And if I ask &quot;Why?&quot; am I already not partially existing in this nexus, yet deluding myself that I am not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m looking for the evolution of this discussion. Where did it go? How is it not here? Why is it not here? Did it evolve into a whole new species of conversation? Was all the information here to begin with? Was new viral information added and the discussion became more complex? Was this whole discussion planned and designed from The Beginning, or did it just come about by an unimaginably long series of random cause-and-effect mechanisms? Perhaps my questions exist in more than one universe simultaneously, and the resulting translations represent an entirely different set of questions depending upon the universe from which the questions are viewed? Can we construct a nexus between these universes within which we can understand each other and, indeed, understand ourselves? Can we exist in this nexus long enough to get a glimpse of why we ourselves ask the questions we ask? And if I ask &#8220;Why?&#8221; am I already not partially existing in this nexus, yet deluding myself that I am not?</p>
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		<title>By: Christmas Tree Topper &#187; Kidologist.Com » the Secret To Navigating the Evolution Debate</title>
		<link>http://kidologist.com/2009/11/08/secret-two-navigating-evolution-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-7920</link>
		<dc:creator>Christmas Tree Topper &#187; Kidologist.Com » the Secret To Navigating the Evolution Debate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kidologist.com/?p=2365#comment-7920</guid>
		<description>[...] Kidologist.Com » the Secret To Navigating the Evolution Debate   2) Most Christians are right on Macro Evolution two bad we can&#8217;t stop calling names and be objective and get to the truth ! So, there is my rant and contribution to the looooong heated debate on evolution in the public square . &#8230;Click Here [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Kidologist.Com » the Secret To Navigating the Evolution Debate   2) Most Christians are right on Macro Evolution two bad we can&#8217;t stop calling names and be objective and get to the truth ! So, there is my rant and contribution to the looooong heated debate on evolution in the public square . &#8230;Click Here [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://kidologist.com/2009/11/08/secret-two-navigating-evolution-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-7919</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kidologist.com/?p=2365#comment-7919</guid>
		<description>Oh Karl, you tempt me so!  I cannot hold forth, though you have baited the hook with a veritable smorgasbord of Creationist classics!  Micro- vs. Macroevolution, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and No New Genetic Information?  All in one post?  It&#039;s like Christmas! :)

But, we&#039;ll have to wait to unwrap our presents for a few more days.  This is likely to take a while once we get started.  Be prepared to define your terms as I&#039;ll be having a number of specific questions for you before long and I don&#039;t want us to waste any more time than we have to in semantic arguments in which we are using the same word to mean two different things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh Karl, you tempt me so!  I cannot hold forth, though you have baited the hook with a veritable smorgasbord of Creationist classics!  Micro- vs. Macroevolution, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and No New Genetic Information?  All in one post?  It&#8217;s like Christmas! <img src='http://kidologist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>But, we&#8217;ll have to wait to unwrap our presents for a few more days.  This is likely to take a while once we get started.  Be prepared to define your terms as I&#8217;ll be having a number of specific questions for you before long and I don&#8217;t want us to waste any more time than we have to in semantic arguments in which we are using the same word to mean two different things.</p>
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		<title>By: kidologist</title>
		<link>http://kidologist.com/2009/11/08/secret-two-navigating-evolution-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-7917</link>
		<dc:creator>kidologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kidologist.com/?p=2365#comment-7917</guid>
		<description>Josh, you are da man! (Hope you don&#039;t mind)

I approve your comments because:

1) I love that you passionately disagree with me - and argue in the same passionate spirit as I do, but are never rude or disrespectful. Maybe a little sarcastic with your &quot;lies to tell children&quot; but I can hear your tongue in cheek, and I can take it. 

Can I make a distinction: I don&#039;t think evolutionists are evil - just wrong. OK? Being wrong isn&#039;t evil. Some might say evolution is evil, but I think that&#039;s kinda unnecessary and overboard. I would say the IMPACT of evolution is evil - if we have no value as humans, we are just an animal, it leads to evil and many young people who commit crimes have pointed to evolution in their reasoning. BUT (i too will be quick to point out, right with non-Christians) that the IMPACT of some religion, even Christianity can be evil too... Crusades? So, I don&#039;t throw the word evil around, its a distraction and a cheap shot I don&#039;t use. I know YOU WEREN&#039;T just saying, I don&#039;t like when Christians do it to non-Christians. Its a cheap shot.

2) I like dissenting opinions. If I can&#039;t approve an opinion that says I&#039;m wrong or misguided - I&#039;m not really on a pursuit of truth. Too many people aren&#039;t willing to listen to those who disagree. That&#039;s why I like that you read my facebook and blog and engage me. Thanks.

3) I too am heartened that we agree! There is hope! We have a common place of agreement from which to start. Hey, contact the Associated Press - Karl and Josh agree! Send out a Press Release!

OK - here&#039;s the heart of the matter: You say, using the milk example, &quot;The processes are precisely and exactly the same in both micro- and macro-evolution.&quot;

The problem is, that is a HUGE ASSUMPTION, which for your reasons, you are willing to accept, and I am unwilling to accept. Using your milk illustration - I have gotten milk from the fridge AND not only from down the street but from a market in Manila, Philippines! So I can scientifically demonstrate the milk can be gotten here AND there - they are BOTH micro-milkology!

MACRO-MILKOLOGY teaches that there was milk before a cow, or that milk somehow slowly formed over a loooooong period of time, but we both know the milk would have spoiled! And no one has ever seen that - it can&#039;t be demonstrated, or proven. 

You see, evolutionist use TIME (long periods of it, the longer the better) as their excuse for everything - it is the cushion for everything - &quot;it took millions of years&quot; - its sounds great, but doesn&#039;t hold up. We know from the Second Law of Thermodynamics that things get worse, not better. And even in Micro Evolution, things may change or adapt, but as one of the comments on the original article linked above well stated:

&quot;Although species may change, they do not gain new genetic information. The genes may be arranged differently to produce different characteristics, but there is no information added. The addition of new information is essential for evolution to occur, and we do not have evidence of that occurring. Living things may adapt to the environment they live in, but they certainly do not evolve into something more genetically complex.&quot;

So I stand by what I posted - there is evidence for Micro-evolution (and micro-milkology), but Macro-evolution has yet to produce ANY evidence. (and I&#039;ll be waiting for evidence of macro-milkology too!) :)

(I know you&#039;ve got tests, so I won&#039;t expect a beating for a few days)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, you are da man! (Hope you don&#8217;t mind)</p>
<p>I approve your comments because:</p>
<p>1) I love that you passionately disagree with me &#8211; and argue in the same passionate spirit as I do, but are never rude or disrespectful. Maybe a little sarcastic with your &#8220;lies to tell children&#8221; but I can hear your tongue in cheek, and I can take it. </p>
<p>Can I make a distinction: I don&#8217;t think evolutionists are evil &#8211; just wrong. OK? Being wrong isn&#8217;t evil. Some might say evolution is evil, but I think that&#8217;s kinda unnecessary and overboard. I would say the IMPACT of evolution is evil &#8211; if we have no value as humans, we are just an animal, it leads to evil and many young people who commit crimes have pointed to evolution in their reasoning. BUT (i too will be quick to point out, right with non-Christians) that the IMPACT of some religion, even Christianity can be evil too&#8230; Crusades? So, I don&#8217;t throw the word evil around, its a distraction and a cheap shot I don&#8217;t use. I know YOU WEREN&#8217;T just saying, I don&#8217;t like when Christians do it to non-Christians. Its a cheap shot.</p>
<p>2) I like dissenting opinions. If I can&#8217;t approve an opinion that says I&#8217;m wrong or misguided &#8211; I&#8217;m not really on a pursuit of truth. Too many people aren&#8217;t willing to listen to those who disagree. That&#8217;s why I like that you read my facebook and blog and engage me. Thanks.</p>
<p>3) I too am heartened that we agree! There is hope! We have a common place of agreement from which to start. Hey, contact the Associated Press &#8211; Karl and Josh agree! Send out a Press Release!</p>
<p>OK &#8211; here&#8217;s the heart of the matter: You say, using the milk example, &#8220;The processes are precisely and exactly the same in both micro- and macro-evolution.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem is, that is a HUGE ASSUMPTION, which for your reasons, you are willing to accept, and I am unwilling to accept. Using your milk illustration &#8211; I have gotten milk from the fridge AND not only from down the street but from a market in Manila, Philippines! So I can scientifically demonstrate the milk can be gotten here AND there &#8211; they are BOTH micro-milkology!</p>
<p>MACRO-MILKOLOGY teaches that there was milk before a cow, or that milk somehow slowly formed over a loooooong period of time, but we both know the milk would have spoiled! And no one has ever seen that &#8211; it can&#8217;t be demonstrated, or proven. </p>
<p>You see, evolutionist use TIME (long periods of it, the longer the better) as their excuse for everything &#8211; it is the cushion for everything &#8211; &#8220;it took millions of years&#8221; &#8211; its sounds great, but doesn&#8217;t hold up. We know from the Second Law of Thermodynamics that things get worse, not better. And even in Micro Evolution, things may change or adapt, but as one of the comments on the original article linked above well stated:</p>
<p>&#8220;Although species may change, they do not gain new genetic information. The genes may be arranged differently to produce different characteristics, but there is no information added. The addition of new information is essential for evolution to occur, and we do not have evidence of that occurring. Living things may adapt to the environment they live in, but they certainly do not evolve into something more genetically complex.&#8221;</p>
<p>So I stand by what I posted &#8211; there is evidence for Micro-evolution (and micro-milkology), but Macro-evolution has yet to produce ANY evidence. (and I&#8217;ll be waiting for evidence of macro-milkology too!) <img src='http://kidologist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>(I know you&#8217;ve got tests, so I won&#8217;t expect a beating for a few days)</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://kidologist.com/2009/11/08/secret-two-navigating-evolution-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-7916</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kidologist.com/?p=2365#comment-7916</guid>
		<description>Hey Karl, I don&#039;t know if I&#039;m they guy you mentioned, but I figure I&#039;m as close to it as you need for these purposes.  You are, unfortunately, incorrect in your assertions about the difference between microevolution and macroevolution.  These terms are very rarely used in real evolution research because they, at best, are broad placeholders for what sort of time scale we&#039;re working at.  To suggest that microevolution works and macroevolution doesn&#039;t is to suggest that you can walk into the kitchen to grab a glass of milk, but you couldn&#039;t possibly ever walk a mile down the road to buy a new gallon of milk.  The processes are precisely and exactly the same in both micro- and macroevolution.  The difference is only in how long a time you let them run.

I&#039;m very sorry someone has misled you on the state of the science.  I&#039;d love to chat with you at length on it, which I&#039;m sure you know I can.  However, I actually have my general exam on Wednesday for my PhD (in evolutionary biology) and I&#039;ve got to get back to studying.  I&#039;ll try to chime in more after the exam is over in the hopes of us reaching a better understanding.  I&#039;m quite heartened by your acceptance of microevolution, because that means that all which needs to now be dispelled are the misconceptions you&#039;re under regarding it versus macroevolution.

Now ... I have to get back to learning what lies we&#039;re going to tell the children next in our evil, global evolutionist conspiracy to cover up the &quot;truth&quot; about creationism.  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Karl, I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m they guy you mentioned, but I figure I&#8217;m as close to it as you need for these purposes.  You are, unfortunately, incorrect in your assertions about the difference between microevolution and macroevolution.  These terms are very rarely used in real evolution research because they, at best, are broad placeholders for what sort of time scale we&#8217;re working at.  To suggest that microevolution works and macroevolution doesn&#8217;t is to suggest that you can walk into the kitchen to grab a glass of milk, but you couldn&#8217;t possibly ever walk a mile down the road to buy a new gallon of milk.  The processes are precisely and exactly the same in both micro- and macroevolution.  The difference is only in how long a time you let them run.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m very sorry someone has misled you on the state of the science.  I&#8217;d love to chat with you at length on it, which I&#8217;m sure you know I can.  However, I actually have my general exam on Wednesday for my PhD (in evolutionary biology) and I&#8217;ve got to get back to studying.  I&#8217;ll try to chime in more after the exam is over in the hopes of us reaching a better understanding.  I&#8217;m quite heartened by your acceptance of microevolution, because that means that all which needs to now be dispelled are the misconceptions you&#8217;re under regarding it versus macroevolution.</p>
<p>Now &#8230; I have to get back to learning what lies we&#8217;re going to tell the children next in our evil, global evolutionist conspiracy to cover up the &#8220;truth&#8221; about creationism.  <img src='http://kidologist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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