Core Vales Matter and they shape everything you do.
I just got back from spending three days at Group Publishing Headquarters for their reGroup conference and it was a fantastic time of fellowship with the staff of Group I’ve gotten to know and appreciate over the years, some Kidology friends both that I’ve known and some I got to meet for the first time, and as always, I got to make new friends. I may still blog more about reGroup – but here I wanted to write about something that struck me about the power of Core Values while at this event during a tour of the Group Headquarters.
I’m often in an odd spot in the CM world – I play on a lot of teams, even as we all play on the same Kingdom Team. And as such, I often get to know many ministries and companies on the inside at times better than they perhaps get to know each other. For example, I am on the board of directors of, and write DiscipleTown, for DiscipleLand Publishers, while also being an author and columnist for Group Publishing (CM Mag and CM Professional Edition).
I also serve as a consultant to many Christian business organizations in the area of strategic ministry planning, financial planning, product development, web presence, online marketing, etc. and I end up hearing their opinions about other ministries. While shared sincerely, they initially share negative opinions until I coach them in understanding that they are evaluating their competition through the grid of their own core values without understanding the core values of the other company, which usually are entirely different.
Most of my consulting roles are confidential, so I can’t blog about them, but since everyone knows my roles with DiscipleLand and Group, and publicly they are ‘competitors’ (in the business sense) I’d like to use them as an example of how two organizations can be very different and yet be driven by two completely different Core Values and have as a result two very different outcomes when it comes to product results, and yet both be fantastic companies with wonderful products worthy of churches considering, and why I am so passionate about both of them and how I would describe their Core Value and the impact it makes on what they produce.
DISCLAIMER:This is MY OPINION from what I have observed. I have not gotten any of this from any official statement or documents and either company could very likely disagree with me and I am not speaking on either companies behalf in any official manner – this is my personal blog – I am offering what I think from what I extrapolate from their product and company behavior. I’m not intending to be either complimentary or critical, merely observatory. OK?
DISCIPLELAND: It is my conclusion that DiscipleLand’s Core Value – the thing that drives them is to MAKE DISCIPLES. Everything they do flows out of this single focus. I think this is what keeps Mark Steiner awake at night – wondering how Jesus intended us to make disciples, and he turns to the Word of God for the blueprint. Every product DiscipleLand creates flows out of that passion. He isn’t thinking of what would be a neat product, what’s cool, what will sell, or studying trends. He has a comprehensive strategy for what a fully developed disciple of Jesus looks like and has produced a curriculum that strives to equip teachers to help guide children closer toward that end in knowledge, conduct and character. Even when I offered to write children’s church curriculum it couldn’t be on just anything, it had to be on the 24 disciple skills he had already identified every child needs to develop in order to be fully equipped for the Christian life. When you look at DiscipleLand and what it has, or doesn’t have, even if you are critical of it, it helps to understand that underneath and behind everything is this passionate drive to MAKE DISCIPLES. That will often help explain why they don’t have some of the neat things others publishers have. They might be good things, but DiscipleLand has a laser sharp focus on equipping churches to making disciples and are content to allow others to help them with the rest.
CHECK OUT my Kidology Spotlight Ministry Report on DiscipleLand which highlights the many reasons I am so highly supportive of DiscipleLand’s Core Bible Curriculum and it’s strategic approach to disciple making and why I have used it in every church I have served in. It is truly unique.
GROUP PUBLISHING: It is my conclusion that Group’s Core Value is to SERVE PEOPLE BY MEETING NEEDS believing that when they do, incredible things will happen. Of course, I stole that second half from their current marketing slogan, “Incredible Things Will Happen!” Otherwise, I would have just said, Group exists to serve the church by meeting people’s needs, and I might add, one of the amazing and unique things about Group is that they aren’t just concerned about the needs of Christians! Did you know they have an outreach cafe as part of the headquarters in Loveland, Colorado that draws non-Christians onto their campus on Friday nights for non-threatening spiritual conversations? (See www.lifetreecafe.com) I thought only churches were supposed to do that? Did you know they send 25,000 teenagers around the country and over seas every year to serve in needy areas? Did you know the site of Group’s headquarters was the site of the first Group Youth Work Camp in 1977 when Group founder Thom Schultz saw the need to serve and invited youth groups across America to come to Loveland and help when there was a flood there? His passion is to serve wherever the need is, Christians and non-Christians alike. This is a publisher we are talking about! Doing evangelism out of a publisher headquarters? Sending short term missions from a publisher? It almost doesn’t make sense. But it does, when you understand their Core Value. THEN we can get to the magazines, and the curriculum, and the Vacation Bible School, and over 1,000 published books since the late 1970’s – all to help people – and why they are always hosting focus groups and doing survey’s and being so responsive to their customers? Because they exist to SERVE. And why they just hosted reGroup. An event they charged a $75 deposit for, and then gave us $100 to spend in the store, plus other gifts, and books, and provided training, and networking and a personality assessment test and (most valuable) the investment of their time and energy for three days.
and forgive me for adding one more organization you might have heard of:
KIDOLOGY: Can I share with you what makes Kidology tick? Just in case you never caught it, or read it at the top of our website, our Core Value is EQUIPPING AND ENCOURAGING those who minister to children. That is what gets us out of bed in the morning, and if you want to put wind in our sail or make our day, send us an e-mail telling us how we equipped you or encouraged you. It is what drives us and what is behind everything we do. Every product I create – every blog post I write – every tweet I tweet – it is what we exist to do, and if I ever quit, it will be because I think I’m no longer equipping or encouraging anyone any more.
THE POINT?
1) What is your Core Value? What drives you? What is your passion? What gets you out of bed? What is the thing that influences everything you do? Can others tell? And don’t try to be everything to everyone – pick your passion and focus on that, and let others do the other stuff. I chose my life mission at age 19 and this is what I do. I don’t bother with all the other good stuff, I just focus on trying to be great at equipping and encouraging childrens workers. I’ve got one life to devote to that. I hope I can do it well!
2) Look for the Core Value of Others. See if you can identify the core value of others and then appreciate it. Often when you are critical of someone or an organization you are missing their core value. You are being critical because you are assuming they have the same core value as you, or imposing a core value on them they don’t have. This doesn’t mean that an organization won’t have the value that you have in mind, but it may not be their CORE value – they are focused on something else at their center and therefore coming from a different emphasis. When you learn to appreciate the Core Values of other individuals and organizations who come to realize the balance and variety they bring to the Kingdom and the Family of God – if we all did life and ministry the same, what a boring world this would be! Celebrate our different emphases and get on with it!
PLEASE TELL ME IN COMMENTS: What is your Core Value – what are YOU most passionate about in life and/or ministry?
I’m doing the final editing for the next DiscipleTown unit, “How to Make Good Choices” due out March 15th. Hard to believe I’ve written six of these! (and that I have 18 more to go!) I always marvel how each and every unit convicts me and how each unit seems to be exactly what I needed to review in my own walk with God and how much I enjoy developing a four week spiritual journey for children to explore as so that they can grow closer to Jesus and become better disciples.
Let me share one of my favorite elements from lesson three, it is a routine I use with my puppet, Gus. Of course, in the curriculum Gus’ name gets dropped (Sorry Gus!) so that teacher’s can replace him with their own puppet, I remember this routine fondly for both the humor and yet the poignant impact this routine has made many times on children. It’s a description, not a script, but you’ll get the idea:
Puppet has a black eye, a broken arm, and bandages all over his body. Leader asks what is wrong and says, “I hope you didn’t try to fight sin to the death like you were talking about last week!” Puppet says, “Oh, no. I did this all by myself.” Leader looks shocked, “You did this yourself? Were you in some kind of terrible accident?” Puppet says, “Oh, no. It wasn’t an accident. I did it on purpose.” Leader is even more shocked, “On purpose!? You did this on purpose? But why on earth would you do this on purpose?” Puppet looks sad and solemn. “Because I’m such a bad puppet. I needed to be punished.” Leader looks very concerned, “Punished? Punished for what?” Puppet continues, “Oh, I’m too embarrassed to tell you. But you said last week to turn to God and I’d stop sinning. Well, it didn’t work. I sinned again. And since I know better than to try and fight sin, I decided to beat myself up instead. I wanted to teach myself a lesson. God can’t have bad people on His team, you know. I’ve got to knock some sense into myself—beat myself into submission, you know. I tried to knock myself into the middle of next week. What is today’s date, by the way?” Leader is shocked and sad. “Oh, Puppet, you don’t need to beat yourself up. God will forgive you.” Puppet looks up, “Oh, I know He did, but not again and again.” Leader says, “Yes, again and again, and then again and again and again and again.” Puppet asks, “And then … again and again?” Leader smiles, “And then again and again.” Puppet says, “And then again?” Leader says, “And then again.” Puppet asks, “How many agains?” Leader says, “Until you’ve lost track.” Puppet says, “I already have.” Leader: “Then you still have more agains left over.” Puppet, looking more cheerful: “That’s a lot of agains!” Leader smiles: “As many as you need—that’s how much He loves you.”
Jesus sure has given me a lot of “agains” and I know I have a tendency to beat myself up to. I recently was with a good friend and brought up a sin I had committed in the past and this godly leader cut me off, looked me in the eye and said, “Do you believe in the cross?” I said “Of course,” and this person said, “then don’t ever mention your sin to me again. Just keep moving forward and serving the Lord.” Wow. That’s far as the East is from the West! We need more Christians like that, don’t we? We teach this stuff to our children, but sometimes its so hard to live and believe it for ourselves!
What are you beating yourself up for? What do you keep reminding yourself of?
Jesus has as many “agains” as we have sins. Need another “again?” He’s got one for ya!
And no, I’m not referring to almost being struck by lightening in Yosemite last year! Nor am I directly talking about my near heart attack last year either – though for all practical purposes I might as well be. If almost dying twice in 2009 taught me anything (and it taught me a lot!) it made me realize that long life is not something you should assume. So let me say it again, and I really hope you will hear me this time: (this is now directly from my journal on my solo sabbatical)
Everyone ought to almost die. If not, they really should try to pretend or reflect on what it means to live as though they are not sure of long life.
Let me set the record straight. I’m not afraid of dying. Never was. But after almost dying (twice!) I’m no longer afraid of living! I refuse to put off the life I want. If that sounds selfish, let me rephrase it – I refuse to put off what I believe God is calling me to do. (sound better?) I no longer assume far off “somedays” exist! Two to three years is as long as I assume I have. That DOESN’T mean I think I’m a dead man in five years! Without going into detail – I have a clean bill of health, I avoided a heart attack, and have a stent in a healthy heart. It just means that if I want to do something, I START PLANNING IT! I know better now – start planning it, or it’ll never happen!
Someday is just another word for NEVER!
What are you saying you will do someday? Write a book? Go on some dream vacation? Produce a resource? Start a business? (Go on Yosemite Summit or Unbridled?) I can’t even guess what it is for YOU, but YOU know what I’m talking about… I’m scratching that itch RIGHT NOW. I know I am.
The point is, start planning it NOW. At least get out a pad of paper and start scratching out the first few steps.
One of my life long dreams was to go to Yosemite in Winter. It seemed impossible. The only way it happened was to start planning it. And then God came along and took care of the “impossible” part for me! He surprised me by taking care of the one detail I couldn’t manage. Do you think God won’t do that for you? Do you think He loves me more than you? Bah!
Watch this video of my little dream come true. This took over four years to come true. Even longer if you count the years I was too scared and too busy to dream the dream! Enjoy! Two days snow shoeing through Yosemite in winter and then ask yourself,
What “someday” am I not trusting God for? And start planning it.
These are images and journal entries from my Solo Sabbatical to Yosemite in January 2010. (Pictures are all from Day One, two more days yet to come.)
Day 1 – February 1, 2010
First Glimpse of Half Dome - Always Stunning
Knowing God.
Started thinking about this topic this morning – so been mulling it around all morning as I snow shoed around the base of El Capitan and Merced River taking pictures today. (Love snow shoeing by the way.) Really thought it would be a lot more laborious than it is, it’s easy and enjoyable. But anyway, “knowing God” – isn’t that the promise of the Christian life? We can know God!
I gave away my Badger Pass ski lift passes each morning (also included tour bus passes and other perks) at breakfast that came with my Lodge “all inclusive deal” because I didn’t need them, the meal vouchers were all I needed. I’m here just to hike and take pictures. I was offered money each time and just said nope, “they’re as free as God’s salvation.” I almost added, “I hope you’ll get to know Him like I do.” That’s what got me thinking about this. How well DO I know Him?
El Capitan Aglow in Late Afternoon
That’s supposed to be the big offer of salvation! How many Gospel tracts have on the cover, “You can KNOW GOD!” Then why don’t I feel like I know Him? (Should I not be admitting this?) Oh, I know a lot about him – probably more than most people. Try me. And not just on a biblical knowledge basis either, philosophically even. (Don’t ask me to explain, it’s complicated.) ;0) But know God? – come on, are you serious? He’s GOD for crying out loud! How am I supposed to KNOW Him? What does that even mean?
Understand Him? Yeah, right. Predict His behavior? I wish. Anticipate His moves? Never. Influence His decisions? You could argue prayer – but that’s a stretch. Hang out with Him and shoot the breeze? I hardly think so. Worship Him? Certainly! (I’m doing that here in Yosemite!) But that isn’t knowing Him.
Brideveil Falls in Winter
I worship Him (especially here in Yosemite) precisely because I don’t know Him enough – how He created this place, etc. I understand what He expects, wants, and demands of me well enough – and how far short I fall – and I understand His mercy and grace, even friendship and salvation through the person and work of Jesus Christ — and have accept it!! BUT KNOW HIM?!?!?
El Capitan On Fire from the Evening Sun
I’m not so sure about that – and I’m not even convinced I’m supposed to KNOW HIM – just His TRUTH. The more I marvel at the wonders of Yosemite – the more I am convinced my purpose is not much different from that of Half Dome or El Capitan. I think I have about as much chance of knowing God as one of those Rocks! And only man’s pride tells me I have more chance of knowing God than a towering tree or a flowing river.
Seriously. The more I think about who God is – the more I see that I am just another of His creations. Sure – I’m MORE than a rock – I can talk, write in this journal! (or blog) I’m self aware – and aware that I’m self aware - and aware that I’m aware that I’m aware and so on! I have a free will, and therefore the capacity for love as well as rebellion – I can be loyal to my Creator – or selfishly act independent of Him even as He sustains my very existence and breath. But know Him?
A Snow Covered Half Dome from Sentinel Bridge
I’d like to meet someone who claims to know God. Seriously. (email me if you do.) I’d like to know what that looks like. For me, I’d like to stop telling people, “You can know God personally.” I’m not sure that’s true. However, perhaps we can say, “God knows you personally, and you can be right with Him.” I think I want to give up trying to “know God” and instead focus on being right with God. Living a life of obedience that pleases God, honors God – and reflects His glory.
Half Dome from Sentinel Bridge After Dark (time lapse)
As I said earlier, my purpose, as a creation of God, is no different that these mountains here – it is to be a testimony to God. The only difference is that they are far more limited in what they can do, however they get to do it for for hundreds of years! I don’t get as long – but have been given much more ability to testify! With words – actions – love – attitudes – etc. HOW I LIVE, the testimony of my life.
I’m not sure my goal in life ought to be to “know God” – I think it is rather that others might be right with God too because they knew me.
Yosemite Fall Taken in Pitch Darkness with Open Shutter
I wonder every time I come here, how people can be in Yosemite and not believe in God. I ought to wonder how people can know me and not believe in God.
In the fall of 2006 I reached a breaking point. I was last person to admit I could no longer handle being a full time pastor, a full time “kidologist” (whatever that is!) – run a non-profit ministry while writing, speaking, training, etc. and be a husband and then over-night I became a father. Six months later I snapped. That is over-simplifying the breakage that took place – but this is a public blog. But the Sunday after I resigned my pastorate and canceled all my speaking engagements and headed into what would be two years of healing and rebuilding my life from the inside out – I went to a board member and friends church ready to soak in instead of put out.
As though a conspiracy against my heart, the sermon series was tited “Out of Control.” Go figure. Who told them I was coming?
I talk in detail about this and its impact on me in the first Kidology Online Training video First Things First which many have told me has in turn impacted them. (Some have shared their feedback in the forum discussion for that video)
On the stage was a giant TV Remote control. Each button related to a sermon. Here is a QUICK overview getting to the point of this post:
Stop - Sabbath: Me? Guilty.
Fast Forward – Vision, living with the future in mind. Me? Oh, boy. I had that button stuck. All I used to talk about was Vision! I’m all about Vision, which is good, Great even! But I failed to live in TODAY. Guilty.
Reverse – Dealing with the past. Luckily, I got a break that week. This sermon dealt with dealing with childhood wounds and I had a wonderful childhood, and I really don’t have baggage there, so I was received. It was a good message, but I enjoyed a week of not feeling beat up.
Pause - Reflection – stopping to reflect on how is your walk with God is TODAY, your marriage, your relationship with kids, friends, etc. I was always about where I was going – I needed to plan periods to stop and ask, how are things right now? Guilty.
But the one that got me the worst – and that I didn’t see coming, and the point of this post, and the reason I am heading to Yosemite this week, and why my post says “Thank you Pastor Jeff Griffin” -
WAS PLAY: RECREATION. I totally did not see this one coming!
Pastor Jeff defined recreation as RE-CREATION. That which re-creates you.
Let me explain.
Up to that point, I had always said,
“I am so blessed that my occupation, my vocation and my recreation are all the same: children’s ministry!”
I couldn’t have been more wrong!
I mistook FUN for re-creation. It IS TRUE that children’s ministry is FUN – there is no more fun and enjoyable ministry than working with kids – but it doesn’t re-create me, it DRAINS ME! And I had been being drained for fifteen years.
This may come as a shocker to many who know me, but I am an introvert.
WHAT?!?!? But I am a public speaker and love to entertain and make people laugh and am comfortable in the spotlight. Yes, that is where my gifts and talents are – but I recharge and refresh and renewalone.
HERE’S THE POINT:
That Sunday Pastor Jeff challenged us to intentionally plan a way to be re-created explaining that this is the true nature of recreation. I leaned over to my wife, almost sarcastically, because at that moment, I thought his challenge was IMPOSSIBLE, and I said, almost bitterly, as I was so empty and drained and exhausted and hurt and in pain and said,
“The only way I could be re-created would be to go to Yosemite alone for several days with just my camera and worship music and be alone with God.”
Granted, in September 2006, I was in no place to do such a thing – but the seed was born and the idea took root and would not go away. A year later I got the courage to ask my wife seriously if she would let me pursue this dream, and she said if I would go with some other men. (She feared me falling off a cliff for the sake of a picture!) I also had shared with her that I knew I couldn’t be the only children’s pastor who needed this!
As a result, Yosemite Summit was born. Me and eight men have since gone twice. You can read and view pictures and video of the Summit of 2008 and 2009. If you need this event and can not afford it, a 100% scholarship has been given for this year.
But today, over four years after I heard that sermon, my dream of going alone for several days to Yosemite for a one on one with God in Yosemite is coming true.
I want to thank Pastor Jeff for that sermon. I also want to thank him for taking time with me for several meals and meeting during those two years of healing in Illinois. His grace, love, advice and belief in me was healing.
Some see me as some children’s ministry blogger or ‘guru’ or expert. Some have called me a ‘giant’ of children’s ministry – those words scare me. My other website may be giant, but I’m no giant. I’m a little man with huge flaws and I thank God for men like Pastor Jeff who saw only the man and who saw none the stuff around me and cared less about my ministry, and more about me and loved me into a new place of health and vitality that has equipped me for the next phase of life and serving God with new energy and perspective that is free from the old drive that while accomplished a lot, about killed me and my marriage.
I finally understand what it truly means to be dead to self, and alive in Christ.
Thanks Jeff – I’m in Yosemite this week, hangin’ with God because of you!
March 24, 2009 at 12:48 am · Filed under Christianity
UP FRONT: this post will be too long for most of my readers, but I want to preserve it here, and provide a better place for the discussion. Our guest, I hope, will be a sharp guy named Josh. You are welcome to engage in comments, but be respectful for those reading/commenting who may not believe the same as most of my usual readers here do.
This all began on Facebook when an anonymous person who calls himself ‘Jehovah Jireh’ asked in his status to rate from 1 to 10 whether you believed God existed. I’m not certain whether this person is a Christian, I’m inclined to think not on some things s/he has said, though I often find his posts humorous, such as “If atheism is a religion, than baldness is a hair color.” Not sure how serious he intends his Facebook (and Twitter) personality to be, but this week I got into a rather long conversation with a few, mostly a guy named Josh – and I’ve really enjoyed it. I love when people can engage in ideas without getting nasty. And let me add, usually it is Christians who get obnoxious when they can’t take the heat. I hope to keep talking with Josh – not for the purpose of converting him (though I’d like that for his sake) but for the purpose of sharpening my own thinking and keeping my intellectual feet to the fire. As I’ll mention below, you’ll never argue anyone into Christianity – but through discussing ideas (even pointedly) we all gain, even if we don’t convince.
I don’t post this because I thinking I’m “winning” the conversation, nor to enlist others to join me and gang up on Josh – believe me, Josh can hold his own; and perhaps others of his persuasion will jump in here too (they are welcome!) – but mostly because on Facebook we had to keep limiting our comments to short answers due to the limits of commenting on a status from days ago! My latest answer is frankly too long for Facebook, so I’m gonna post a link to this blog post instead!
So here is where the conversation stands now. I have left out some trivial parts just for length, and combined some comments since the space limits are removed, but have left the comments intact that were of substance. (I also deleted the smilies Josh ends many of his good-spirited posts with only because my blog converted them to images and messed up the formatting! It’s been a good spirited conversation.)
Read if you can handle it, and then it will then continue (I hope) under comments:
Origian Status I commented on: Jehovah Jireh: Final rewording: 10 = certainly no god, 1 = God certainly exists, 5 = 50/50. What’s your number? I predict we see more 1s than 10s.
My first comment: Karl: the fact that we can sit here considering it is proof enough that he does and that he created us free!
Three responses I got:
Jehovah Jireh: Karl: Huh? I’m not sure I follow your logic.
Josh: Nice logic there, Karl. (I took this as meaning bad logic!)
James: If there really is a god who’s in charge then he needs to fired for malfeasance. (Yes, I had to look that word up!)
AND SO THE CONVERSATION BEGAN:
KARL: Space here to short to explain fully, stems from Descartes (among others later) – uniqueness of man questioning existence is mark of a creator’s influence as no other creature contemplates his existence, but rather merely exists. But for the crown of creation to ask the Great Questions (How did i get here, What is my purpose, etc.) is evidence of a God who gave us the ability to ask such questions. Without a God, a Philosophical “First Thought Cause” (different than creations ‘first cause’) we would merely exist without asking such questions. So the logic is that to the extent we can ask about the certainty of God, to the same extent we make him more certain. Not proven, but much more likely. Trying to condense a field of writing – I hope you can follow! Your dog doesn’t ask you where he came from or if you exist, he just eats the food you give him. But we don’t just eat the food God gives us, we ask him how there can be food in the first place, and the asking necessitates an answer!
To “James”, it is not God who has failed us, but we who have failed to use correctly the freedom He has given. Malfeasance is a smart charge – but it would be the same as charging a traffic court judge as responsible for the traffic violation of the defendant before him. God is not to blame for our misdeeds. His options are either to not create creatures with free will, which would eliminate us completely or remove our ability to love (love, by definition much be genuinely optional) or He must allow the consequence of free will to exist, but in the end provide justice, which he will. (Heb. 9:27) The wisest response to the problem of evil is not to blame God, but to get right with God before we stand before him in judgment for our own lives. But know I share your deep frustration over the problems in this world and pray you will discover and experience the Goodness of God in the midst of it toward those who seek Him out. The weight of the ills of this world must be laid at our feet, not His
JOSH: Karl. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and take into account the limited space you have to respond, chalking it up to that. However, as it stands, I’m afraid you’re simply begging the question. You answer the question by assuming the answer you prefer. There is no evidence to support the answer, and I’m afraid extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Also, your premises are muddled. We are the only organism that we are certain can contemplate such questions, but this is not necessarily the case. Research in non-human primates and some other species indicate a rather bewildering tendency to reason. Even if we conceded this point, you would be drawing a rather weighty conclusion from a sample size of one. I’m sorry, but you’ll need to come to the table with a little more to offer than that if you wish to sell so irrational a conclusion.
KARL: Josh, thanks for the respectful answer – I appreciate the tone, too often people get obnoxious discussing such things (and I include Christians in that!) As for irrational, the reality is that it takes as much faith to deny God as it does to accept his existence. I will grant you that my conclusion is my preferred one, I can not deny that! However, that alone does not invalidate it. It could be argued (outside facebook space limitations) that there is as much overwhelming evidence FOR God as against. Faith is necessary whichever you choose, but I do prefer God for this reason: (evidence aside since we can argue that indefinitely) If I am wrong, I lose nothing. I’ll just return to dust. But if you are wrong, there is an eternal price to pay. So I prefer to be on the side that puts me right with God for eternity than on the side that makes the biggest gamble possible in life. If you are right, whew, but if not… I’d think hard on that. Again, thanks for a great conversation. Respectfully
JOSH: Karl, I’m glad to engage in respectful discourse. It is in that spirit that I respond as follows and hope you take my criticism well. If there is as much overwhelming evidence FOR a god or gods as against, please produce it. As a person who is unconvinced by the positive assertion (“There IS a god.”), my burden is much less. The null hypothesis (“There is no evidence to conclude a god.”) is what I must conclude without enough evidence of the alternative to justify it. You, as the theist, are making the positive assertion, so it is you who must provide the evidence. I’m in a rather enviable seat as I’m taking the position of “there’s no evidence, so the proposition is unsupported.” It’s true that “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” However, absence of evidence is STILL absence of evidence, and that’s a poor foundation upon which to base a belief so impactful on your life and society as the belief in a god, much less the belief in a specific god.
KARL: Josh, also, the claim that there is NO God can be considering equally extraordinary requiring extraordinary evidence – the complexity of our world (of ourselves) is viewed as overwhelming evidence of a designer. In the end, you are right. Presupposition taints both of us. The struggle is not to find which is right based on evidence (both feel they have overwhelming evidence) but instead, which has better answers to the problems we face. Christianity does have answers to the problems of this world (whether or not they are liked or accepted.) The other extreme can rely only on chance and accept mystery, (a big bang with no one to start it). In the end, both contain unexplained mystery. Only one offers hope and the other emptiness and despair. And personal experience is the other element that can’t be scientifically tabulated and yet caries great evidential weight, but only to that individual. (Jodie Foster in Contact illustrated this well) My experience can’t be your evidence. outtaroom
JAMES: Ah, Pascal’s Wager. Nothing like a little fear of hellfire to make you believe in all sorts of nonsense. (Sorry Karl, I couldn’t resist.)
KARL: No problem James – I can take a good spirited jab. ;o) one man’s nonsense is another man’s truth. One way or another, we’ll each find out eventually. or if we are lucky, vanish without any consequence for how we lived life. (Not a lot of motivation there for me.) Have a great day free of concern for whether of not eternity matters… for me, its worth considering. For me that is not intended as fear of hellfire, but rather as a sober way to accept that life has meaning beyond what pair of socks I chose this morning or whether any of my decisions matter far beyond my life. See ya in heaven!
JAMES: Yay! Does that mean I can get into heaven now without buying into the whole faith thing?
KARL: It’s not my place to decide if or whether you’ll go to heaven. I’ll let you and God work that out. For my comment “see ya in heaven” I was just being an optimist! ;o)
JOSH: Regarding your use of Pascal’s Wager, I respectfully suggest you abandon it. Most apologists who’ve thought about it outside the context of their preferred religion do. Here’s why:
Pascal’s Wager only works if we assume a false dichotomy of either (A) Your specific God, or (B) no god. The benefit you describe vanishes quite quickly when we begin to consider the thousands of other gods of other denominations and religions, many of which are mutually exclusive of one another, and therefore must be considered as separate cases. In the simplest example, let’s say the options are (A) the Southern Baptist God, (B) Thor, or (C) no god. How are we to distinguish between the demands of the two gods? Which one’s condemnation is the real condemnation? It becomes harder when we start splitting hairs about different god-concepts from different denominations within the same religion.
But there are two other, shorter reasons Pascal’s Wager should be avoided. The second reason not to buy into or use Pascal’s Wager is that it assumes there is no downside to living a life believing in a god that isn’t there. I believe I can make a pretty good case that there are plenty of downsides and present the beliefs of the terrorists who hijacked the planes and flew them into buildings on 9/11 as an example of one particularly vivid example of how a misplaced god-belief can result in a negative for the believer (and society), even if there’s no god.
The third reason Pascal’s Wager should be avoided is that it is bad theology. As typically constructed, it is used to defend the standard Christian god, and relies on fear of a vengeful, petty god who punishes people for eternity for their temporal faults, made possible ultimately by his “gift” of free will and subsequent ultimate punishment of us for using that gift in a way he doesn’t like. It doesn’t sit well with the idea of an infinitely merciful, good, or just deity. The claim that there is NO god is no more or less extraordinary than the claim that there is NO angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon. It’s true we proceed by determining that we will assume a thing does not exist unless presented with evidence that it does, but why would you turn the tables on this logic for the god-hypothesis, when you no-doubt use it in almost every other facet of your life?
As for complexity and different presuppositions this forum is too limited for a full drubbing of those old chestnuts. Suffice it to say, those who hope to use complexity to defend their theology don’t understand complexity very well, and the presuppositions argument is simply a fancy way of appealing to the God of the Gaps. I’ll warn you again, my theistic friend, that this is dangerous theology. The gaps are always getting smaller, and if your god can only live in the gaps, you’ll find him getting smaller with time, too. I hope you and all the other commenters have a good day!
KARL: ) And now I don’t feel bad for using two comments to respond, since you’ve used three. ;o) I hope “Jehovah Jireh” doesn’t mind that we hijacked his status for a deep debate. I wonder if he will jump in? Or perhaps it really IS God on Facebook, and you’ve gotten Him stumped, Josh. ;o) Space is short, but let me say you’d probably be surprised at how much I agree with you. Too often we end up arguing against perceptions rather than actual position of our ‘opponent’ and I use that lightly. Pascal’s Wager (I grant that label) is not based so much on fear (though I too hate how many Christians use fear to draw people to a loving God) but rather on the humble and sobering reality that while arguing Cubs vs. Socks or Democrat vs. Republican can only effect this life, the answers to choose or accept regarding God WILL have eternal consequences, even if that consequence is nothing.
Its easy to lump Christians in with terrorists. (I’m sure you know we don’t like that) but rather than disprove the premise that one religion can’t be right, from our perspective it only proves that believing the wrong thing can be dangerous. Believing the wrong thing can be WORSE than believing nothing. (I’ll agree, I’d rather have an atheist neighbor than an extreme religious one of any sect, Christian or not!) But in the end, “not believing” IS believing. And Christians (please exclude weird, obnoxious and scary ones!) hold that the answers to the Great Questions must HAVE answers. No answer, IS an answer! So the great burden of life is not to ignore or dismiss the questions, but to have the peace of mind that you have answered them as best and as accurately as possible, since what you believe DOES matter for eternity. (even if only as dust)
In the end, I do not judge you (I apologize for how judgemental many Christians are) It is not my place to answer those questions for you – but it is my imperitive to be honest about what i believe and at least respectfully present it. If I truly believed what I do, and did NOT attempt to share it, it would contradict what I claim to believe – that people have a need for God and that there will be judgement for what we do with him in this life. But in the end, I respect you enough to let you make up your own mind.
Understanding, that I too could ultimately be wrong. But as I stated before, me being wrong will not have any negative effect on me. (I won’t even ever know I was wrong!) And I believe I will have lived a better for it. And I do not assume you have a terrible life without God, just one that could have been even better with Him. (and if you are wrong, you will find out.)
JOSH: Karl, nice poem. It’s interesting you bring up the silly beliefs of some people in a lack of absolutes. Post-modern deconstructionists definitely went too far with their crapola. I, for one, have little time for folks who insist there are no absolutes. The question was, at best, one of passing interest for me as a young undergraduate, but it quickly became clear that there are plenty of absolutes in the world, at least insofar as fact, logic, and reason go. From a pragmatic stance, if not a metaphysical one, some questions do have right and wrong answers. I find it funny, therefore, that you evoked the argument of different presuppositions earlier in this thread, for that is a direct outgrowth of postmodern thinking. In creationist circles, its use has been traced to Bruce Chapman, founder of the Discovery Institute, and it’s funny because he is a product of Harvard, one of the prototypical hotbeds of postmodernist thought. Apparently some of the silliness rubbed off.
Also, regarding questions … questions do not necessarily have to have answers. Some questions are not answerable. Example, “what flavor is the number three?” Unless you’re a synesthete, the question is flawed, and has no answer, because flavor is not a characteristics that abstract numbers can have. Perhaps some of the “Great Questions” (who decided they were great, btw?) you speak of are similarly flawed. In many cases, though, they have perfectly fine answers, I’m sure. Some of those answers are known, others not so much. The point is, reason and knowledge should be used to guide our pathway to better and more accurate answers where answers are possible. Those who insist that bronze-age nomads had all the answers millennia ago may find that some questions are not quite as simple as all that. Here’s a question for you, Karl: What evidence would it take to divest you of your faith in an afterlife? I can tell you what evidence I would accept to sway me to your way of thinking.
Finally, Jehovah Jireh jumped back in:
Jihovah Jireh: What kind of god would hide himself and then torture people for not believing in him? People who believe in and worship that sort of god may find that they have failed the test of life. It would make more sense for me to reward skepticism and reason and punish belief in a cruel deity. Do you mind if I call this scenario “Meyer’s Wager”?
KARL: Regarding “Great Questions” and whether “bronze-age nomads had all the answers. ;o) First of all, I’ll grant not all questions have to have answers, however, if there are NO answers to “How did we get here?” “WHY am I here?” and “Do I have a purpose?” then there is little reason left to pursue good, for “good” would only be subjective, and doing “wrong” would only be wrong if you were caught. (had to face a consequence) Mr. Madoff would be a genius, not a criminal, and the only thing ‘wrong’ with defrauding thousands of people of billions of dollars would be getting caught, for he was making the most of his life, since there is no ultimate consequence, only human consequence for getting caught.
Secondly, to assume “bronze-age nomads” could not arrive at truth assumes, a) technology is required to answer these questions, which it isn’t – as technology arguably can support either a godless world OR a god-created world, and b) that God is unable or unwilling to communicate with people before electronic devices. The premise of Christianity is that indeed He did. I find it less likely that any religion that is less than a few hundred years old could have any claim at truth, though many have certainly made that claim. Either God began communicating early on, or he didn’t. I don’t think he’d wait until now to start. Granted, there are other ‘old’ religions and it is why they merit examination, but Christianity is uniquely different than the others on several fronts. Primarily, man’s inability to save himself and God intervening as a Savior.
Good question: What would it take to divest me of my faith in an afterlife. I had to ponder that. In short, a better answer to the Great Questions than the Bible offers, with even more supporting evidence. But for me, a belief in the afterlife is not based on having seen ghosts or any other supernatural experience or paranormal ‘evidence’ – but rather as a result of several steps leading up to it.
That God exists (for reasons we’ve been discussing)
That therefore God would communicate and has
That the historical evidence for the Bible is stronger than any other ancient literature, religious or otherwise.
- the tricky one – personal experience with the message of the Bible as it has impacted me and changed me
the Bible teaches that God created us as eternal beings, and this life as a testing ground for how we use our God-given freedom.
To respond to Jehovah Jireh (since he doesn’t give his true identity) – what type of god would hide himself and then torture people for not believing? Interesting, he states that if we believe that, we have failed the “test of life” – but with no God, who then is giving the test. With no god, there is no test. But back to the valid question – the question assumes He has hidden himself. The biblical account is that he has not – and scientific and historical evidence strongly support (note I’m careful to say support, not prove) the Bible’s account of God repeatedly communicating. The issue throughout history has not been his willingness to communicate, but OUR willingness to listen and accept his message. Bottom line: we want to be in charge of our own life, not subject to a Creator – so most people dismiss the message, or look for ways to dismiss if not disprove it.
Let me add, finally, that my purpose or goal is NOT to prove God exists, or (if I’m granted that), to prove Christianity’s version of God is true. By design, God did not make that possible. (Though we can come pretty close when we are open to it) I submit that all that we can do, is present that belief in God, and in the message of the Bible, is reasonable and rational, and that there are satisfying answers to the questions/objections. Christianity is not irrational or unreasonable. And it provides not only logical answers, but (IMPORTANTLY) a basis for the very logic and reason we desire to use to answer the Great Questions. Without God – there is no answer for logic itself, or reason. Why do we insist on ‘intelligent’ answers – or logical arguments – all this deep thinking is possible because our creator designed us this way. Even when I get my intellectual butt kicked by an atheist or agnostic, the very fact that they can craft and employ such good arguments again points me to their Creator.
In the end, I personally do not believe logic or reason keep people from knowing God. Just as they do not keep me believing in Him. I think God’s claim on how we live our life makes it hard to accept Him. I feel that tension every time I want to do something that I know He does not approve of. (we call that sin) In those moments, I do not want there to be a God. There are times I deny my faith and act as though there isn’t – but then I am brought back to the realization that this wondrous world could not possibly exist without a Creator, and once I accept that, I then accept that I will be held accountable for my life – that may make me guilty, but it also makes God good and just and right. To not hold me and other accountable for all the wrong and evil we see, would make him the God ‘Jihovah Jireh’ described. The reality is, no one is “getting away” with anything (including me).
Bottom Line: I can not convince you that God is real, much less that Christianity is. But I can offer that I believe if you take a close look at Christianity, you can find a reasonable and rational faith that millions of people for centuries have found. (the ones that never make the news) Please ignore the whacked out weird ones who share our name – if you throw out Christianity because of the wackos or the judgmental jerks, you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. We can’t stand those people either and it drives us nuts that they don’t reflect the kindness and love and civility that the Book we share encourages.
There are many men who have set out to disprove Christianity who ended up converted when they got past the people who hurt the message and were willing to take an open and honest look at the evidence. Josh McDowell is one (http://www.josh.org) as is Lee Strobal. I’ve read the critiques of Lee’s books, and they are very intriquing. Reminders that ‘proof’ is not possible – but reasonableness is – and in the end, it is only in giving God a chance that one discovers that Christianity offers the best answers.
Non-belief at this point, leaves MORE unanswered questions than does believing the message of the Bible. Because I have studied both sides, I have seen far more evidence FOR God and the Bible than I have seen to support it is false. I have seen how it reasonably could be false (such as the Q theory for the Gospels) but if I must choose between reasonably false and reasonably true, than I’d rather chose the option that provides more answers that make more sense – and at the same time acknowledges my ability to even make such choices (which is was referenced in my first short comment in this thread that started it all!) and all that is before I even include my own personal experiences with God – answers to prayer, and seeing how much better life is when I follow God and how messed up it gets when I go my own way.
In the end, I do not think this is an issue of “proof” for or against God or for or against Christianity, but looking at whether either position is reasonable and rational, and if both are, which then provides more answers to more questions. “No God” answers some questions (mostly why is there evil in the world) but leaves many more UNanswered, since there IS a reasonable answer to why there is evil in the world when we claim there is a good, loving and all-powerful God. To throw God out to answer one tough question leaves many more unanswerable and ultimately reduces the value of human life to nothing. That is ultimately what is difficult to swallow. If you throw out God, you throw your intrinsic value out as well.
O.K., I’ve dumped a lot – bracing myself for rebuttal. ;o)
and that is where is sits now. Not sure if Josh will engage here – I hope he does. He’s got me thinking, and I like that! If you’d read this far, what are your thoughts?
Kidology.org to release an exclusive clip of the all new Angel Wars next Tuesday!
If you have not seen AngelWars.com you have missed one of the very best Christian animated series for children. Think Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, and super heroes all blended together into one visually stunning animated show that mixes awesome music and eye-popping animation so well, you might get goose bumps just watching the trailer. And that’s before you even sit down with the pop-corn to enjoy the entire show!
I’ve been a fan of the original trilogy since it came out, but am excited that an all new feature length version (90 minutes) is coming out NEXT TUESDAY…. and…. that Kidology.org will be releasing an exclusive clip of the show in our newsletter on the same day! Be the first to see an exciting scene from Angel Wars: The Messengers never before seen!
That’s right! While you can view the official trailer at AngelWars.com and there are a few clips here and there, Kidology.org’s free newsletter subscribers will be treated to an exclusive glimpse of the video NEXT TUESDAY, the day of the release! If you are not a Kidology.org newsletter subscriber, join the thousands of others who know where to get the inside scoop on children’s ministry today! Subscribe now so you don’t miss it! We will also be hosting an online Q and A with the creator, Christopher Waters.
But what IS Angel Wars?
Angel Wars is a visually exciting, kid-friendly rendering of spiritual warfare that allows children to imaginatively and visually engage with the spiritual realm. While they are not exactly ‘biblical’ in the literal sense (nor claim to be) they do allow children to imagine what life could be like for angels. However, I imagine real angels may envy the hover boards, gadgets and space ships these imaginary angels get to enjoy! For those who are concerned with aspects that do not perfectly match biblical descriptions of angels, such as the angels having free will, it is important to realize that in any fiction, for the sake of a story, often a few of realities rules must to broken to establish a premise for a story. From that point on, a shared world view can exist in harmony. In Narnia, animals talk. In Lord of the Rings, great evil power can be embodied in a piece of jewelry. In Star Wars, there is an impersonal but guiding and empowering ‘Force’ which binds the galaxy together. VeggieTales not only has talking veggies, but they can pick things up without hands, and no one seems to have an issue with that. In the same spirit, Angel Wars grants a few exceptions to the idea of angels to create a spiritual world (and beings) that kids can relate to, and that allows for some powerful moral lessons. Targeted to attract children ages 5-11, I can’t wait until my little boy is old enough to watch Angel Wars with me. We will discuss the themes and lessons in the stories, and then it will create a wonderful opportunity to look to the Bible to study what God’s Word teaches us about real angels and how they relate to God, this world, and us. In the meantime, I’m enjoying them myself!
What is this new video about? Here is the official description:
In a city of darkness, they are the light.
From some of the world’s most visionary animators comes an action-packed, feature-length adventure of two young warriors in the battle between the forces of good and evil!
Kira and Eli are the newest members of the Guardian Force, a group of angel warriors sworn to protect the world from the powers of evil. Not yet full Guardians, the young duo still has a lot to learn, but when darkness descends over the city, the time for training is over. Faced with the responsibility of delivering hope to a lost city, they must learn to work together to drive back the soldiers of darkness and grow into the warriors they are destined to become.
Karl’s official endorsement:
Angel Wars beautifully combines stunning visual story telling with powerful character lessons. Rarely is something designed for kids so engaging that adults get mesmerized too. Angel Wars delights the eyes, ears and heart all at once. Christian parents, teachers and pastors now have something of excellence their children can enjoy that will teach as well as entertain. It’s Christian and it’s totally cool… imagine that!
Karl Bastian, the Kidologist
Founder and President of Kidology.org
There is a really good audio message on the “Centrality of the Home” over on DiscipleBlog.com, and I agree with MUCH of what Pastor Voddie Baucham preaches, however, I really struggle with his description of what is being called “FIC” or Family Integrated Churches. On this page he describes an FIC church as one that:
Family Integrated Churches come in all shapes, sizes and varieties. There are FICs in virtually every denominational and theological tradition, and in most sections of the country. While no two FICs are exactly alike, they do have certain distinctives in common.
Families Worship Together
If you’ve ever walked into a FIC during a worship service, perhaps the first thing that struck you was the fact that there were so many babies and small children in the service. We have grown accustomed to the presence of children in the service, and the children grow accustomed to being a part of the worship experience. No one will stop you at the door if you try to enter our service with your toddler.
No Systematic Age Segregation
One of the biggest distinctions of a FIC is the absence of age-graded ministries. We do not have segregated youth ministry, or children’s ministry. First, these ministries are not part of the biblical church model. The Bible is clear on whose job it is to disciple children… parents. Second, these ministries can work against the biblical mode. Parents who are relieved of their discipleship duties tend to become dependent on those who have taken over the job. Finally, these ministries have failed. We are losing 75-88% of Evangelical teens by the end of their freshman year in college. And as Dr. Alvin Reid has noticed, “The largest rise of youth professionals in history has been accompanied by a decline in youth evangelism effectiveness.”
Evangelism/Discipleship Through Homes
We teach parents to evangelize and disciple their children and their neighbors. We emphasize the ministry of hospitality, family worship, catechism, and family discipleship. Thus, instead of placing the burden on paid professionals to “do the work of the ministry,” we equip the saints to do it.
Education as a Key Component of Discipleship
Jesus said, “A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher” (Luke 6:40). Whoever educates a child is discipling that child. We work hard to help parents see the importance of Christian education, and to help them make biblical choices as it relates to this part of their children’s discipleship.
Man, oh man! I agree with of much of this, and yet, I think this is another case of Christians answering one extreme with another extreme. I get frustrated that the Church has such a hard time with balance. If something has a downside (and the current way we ‘do church’ has many) we often run 180 degrees in the opposite direction instead of addressing these issues. In the Kidology.org Forums, I find myself so many times having to politely say, the answer to a controversial issue is rarely (if ever) an either/or issue, but a both/and issue.
It is a bit of a stretch to say that age-graded ministries “aren’t biblical.” If they are, so are donuts and coffee, PowerPoint projected sermon outlines, and driving to church. There are many things we do today that work (or don’t work) that aren’t in the Bible. Not being in the Bible does NOT equal “unbiblical.” Theologians refer to that as a argument from silence. Something is only unbiblical if the Bible forbids it, not if the Bible merely fails to mention it. I suppose I can’t drink Mountain Dew any more, as it is unbiblical. Did you know that there was once a HOTLY DEBATED conflict over the use of microphones in church because they began as a worldly way to amplify sinful singing and music?!?!?!
Once again, I fear we are throwing out the baby with the bath water. YES! We have GOT to address the critcal issues of our ineffectiveness in the church. but the issues are cultural as well. The Dark Ages didn’t come about because we separated kids for age appropriate teaching. There are other forces at work too. There is no “system” or “program,” including FIC, that will ever make sure 100% off our kids stay true to our faith. There will always be free will, and broad will always be the road that leads to descruction and narrow the road to life and few who find it. This isn’t an excuse to be lazy, but it is a reality that impacts the Church and our efforts whether we advance in techniques or revert back to simplier times.
I would suggest that we DO NEED FAMILY INTEGRATED CHURCHES, but not at the expense of everything else that also has benefits. Someone recently commented via Twitter, “Jesus wouldn’t have sent the kids to children’s church, so neither should we.” It’s pretty bold to claim to know what Jesus would do now that specificly! (and a tab bit arrogant) We know much of what Jesus would do when it comes to character, but when it comes to tactical application of ministry, its cheating to claim Jesus on “my” side on any issue. I wouldn’t pretend to know whether Jesus would allow coffee in the auditorium, or a pastor to use a laser pointer, or a church to allow an Elvis impersonator to sing at a Fall Kick-Off. Nor do I think we can say whether he’d allow children’s church or Sunday School. To argue about this is to miss the point and bark up the wrong tree, which will only delay addressing the real issues that face the Church today.
Let’s stick to what we DO know – parents are to be the primary spiritual leaders of their children. AND, that the church often hinders that process. But what do we also know? Many kids do not have Christian parents, or many Christian parents need help depending on where they are on their own spiritual journey.
The most difficult reality of ministry is that we need BOTH - to challenge, equip and empower parents, and to help them, and to reach kids who don’t have the benefit of a believing parents.
A smart church neither ditches children’s ministry, nor depends fully on it to get the job done. I wish I could offer an easy solution, but unlike extremes, real answers are never easy, but they are worth it.
(This was e-mailed to me, but I wanted to post it to share and save)
Man builds working replica of Noah’s Ark (exact scale given in Bible) in Schagen , Netherlands
The massive central door in the side of Noah’s Ark was opened to the first crowd of curious townsfolk to behold the wonder. Of course, it’s only a replica of the biblical Ark , built by Dutch creationist, Johan Huibers, as a testament to his faith in the literal truth of the Bible.
The ark is 150 cubits long, 30 cubits high and 20 cubits wide. That’s two-thirds the length of a football field and as high as a three-story house.
Life-size models of giraffes, elephants, lions, crocodiles, zebras, bison and other animals greet visitors as they arrive in the main hold.
A contractor by trade, Huibers built the ark of cedar and pine. Biblical Scholars debate exactly what the wood used by Noah would have been.
Huibers did the work mostly with his own hands, using modern tools and with occasional help from his son, Roy. Construction began in May 2005. On the uncovered top – deck not quite ready in time for the opening – will come a petting zoo, with baby lambs, chickens, goats and one camel.
Visitors on the first day were stunned. ‘It’s past comprehension’, said Mary Louise Starosciak, who happened to be bicycling by with her husband while on vacation when they saw the ark looming over the local landscape.
“I knew the story of Noah, but I had no idea the boat would have been so big.”
There is enough space near the keel for a 50-seat film theater where kids can watch a video that tells the story of Noah and his ark. Huibers, a Christian man, said he hopes the project will renew interest in Christianity in the Netherlands , where church-going has fallen dramatically in the past 50 years.
Now that I am old and Gray…give me the time to tell This new generation (and their children too) About all your mighty miracles. Psalm 71:18
God’s ways are not our ways. We tend to equate leadership with lordship; He equates leadership with servanthood. We want strength so we can help God with His work; He makes us weak so He can demonstrate His power. We advertise our credentials so others can be more sure of us; He lets us fail so they can see that apart from God we’re not much at all.
We are inclined to focus on personalities, to be impressed by the intellect, education, and strength of a leader’s will. Followers begin to believe that a particular leader can do no wrong. Such adulation, however, is nothing more than humanism—making a human being the measure of all things. What’s worse, it’s idolatry—centering our devotion on someone other than God.
So God lets leaders fall off their pedestal. Failure, indecision, and underachievement bring them to a humbling realization of their own inadequacy—and can cause followers to lose their illusions and overdependence on those leaders. This is a good reminder that all of us—leaders and followers alike—walk through life on “feet of clay.” Ultimately, the only good thing about any one of us is the goodness of God. That’s why we need to recognize that “our sufficiency is from God” (2 Corinthians 3:5). — David H. Roper
also serve as a consultant to many Christian business organizations in the area of strategic ministry planning, financial planning, product development, web presence, online marketing, etc. and I end up hearing their opinions about other ministries. While shared sincerely, they initially share negative opinions until I coach them in understanding that they are evaluating their competition through the grid of their own core values without understanding the core values of the other company, which usually are entirely different.
Puppet has a black eye, a broken arm, and bandages all over his body. Leader asks what is wrong and says, “I hope you didn’t try to fight sin to the death like you were talking about last week!” Puppet says, “Oh, no. I did this all by myself.” Leader looks shocked, “You did this yourself? Were you in some kind of terrible accident?” Puppet says, “Oh, no. It wasn’t an accident. I did it on purpose.” Leader is even more shocked, “On purpose!? You did this on purpose? But why on earth would you do this on purpose?” Puppet looks sad and solemn. “Because I’m such a bad puppet. I needed to be punished.” Leader looks very concerned, “Punished? Punished for what?” Puppet continues, “Oh, I’m too embarrassed to tell you. But you said last week to turn to God and I’d stop sinning. Well, it didn’t work. I sinned again. And since I know better than to try and fight sin, I decided to beat myself up instead. I wanted to teach myself a lesson. God can’t have bad people on His team, you know. I’ve got to knock some sense into myself—beat myself into submission, you know. I tried to knock myself into the middle of next week. What is today’s date, by the way?” Leader is shocked and sad. “Oh, Puppet, you don’t need to beat yourself up. God will forgive you.” Puppet looks up, “Oh, I know He did, but not again and again.” Leader says, “Yes, again and again, and then again and again and again and again.” Puppet asks, “And then … again and again?” Leader smiles, “And then again and again.” Puppet says, “And then again?” Leader says, “And then again.” Puppet asks, “How many agains?” Leader says, “Until you’ve lost track.” Puppet says, “I already have.” Leader: “Then you still have more agains left over.” Puppet, looking more cheerful: “That’s a lot of agains!” Leader smiles: “As many as you need—that’s how much He loves you.”
(I took this as meaning bad logic!)
) And now I don’t feel bad for using two comments to respond, since you’ve used three. ;o) I hope “Jehovah Jireh” doesn’t mind that we hijacked his status for a deep debate. I wonder if he will jump in? Or perhaps it really IS God on Facebook, and you’ve gotten Him stumped, Josh. ;o) Space is short, but let me say you’d probably be surprised at how much I agree with you. Too often we end up arguing against perceptions rather than actual position of our ‘opponent’ and I use that lightly. Pascal’s Wager (I grant that label) is not based so much on fear (though I too hate how many Christians use fear to draw people to a loving God) but rather on the humble and sobering reality that while arguing Cubs vs. Socks or Democrat vs. Republican can only effect this life, the answers to choose or accept regarding God WILL have eternal consequences, even if that consequence is nothing.
